A Code of Conduct for the Go community
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Andrew Gerrand
Jun 18, 2015, 5:20:16 PM6/18/15
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Hi gophers,
Since Go was launched nearly six years ago, our community has grown from a small group of enthusiasts to thousands of programmers from all corners of the globe. I am proud of us; so many great projects and such a helpful and passionate group of people. Sincerely, I consider myself lucky to be involved.
But as we grow we should reflect on how we can improve.
Take this mailing list, for example. While the majority of discussions here are respectful and polite, occasionally they take a turn for the worse. While such incidents are rare, they are noticeable and have an effect on the tone of other discussions. We can do better.
At times we can be overly didactic, meeting opposing ideas with inflexibility. When challenged by a differing opinion we should not be defensive, but rather take the opportunity to discuss and debate so that we may better understand our own ideas.
I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK.
We are the Go community; we get to choose what is OK and what is not. It's not a choice but a responsibility, and it is a responsibility that we have neglected too long.
The positive effects of diversity in communities are well-documented. If our community is to continue to grow and prosper, we must make it a more inclusive place, where all are respected and nobody is made to feel dismissed, unwelcome, or unsafe.
To that end, I propose that we establish a Code of Conduct that would cover the behavior of community members on the various Go mailing lists and the golang subreddit, on IRC, in private Go-related correspondence, and at Go events.
I believe that any Code of Conduct we adopt should be goal-oriented ("this is what we aspire to") rather than rules-oriented ("don't do this!"). I also believe it should empower the community to help maintain a high standard: I want everyone to feel comfortable calling out bad behavior, without the need to appeal to authority.
I have done a survey of similar codes in various communities and the Django Code of Conduct is the one I like best. I am in favor of basing our code directly on that document.
I invite all members of the community to discuss, here in this thread, what they would like to see in our Code of Conduct. I will incorporate those ideas into an official Code of Conduct proposal document that I will submit using our new Change Proposal Process.
I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Andrew
Josh Bleecher Snyder
Jun 18, 2015, 5:38:45 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Gerrand, golang-nuts
-josh
Peter Kleiweg
Jun 18, 2015, 5:46:41 PM6/18/15
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I don't think I like this.
Dave Cheney
Jun 18, 2015, 5:50:22 PM6/18/15
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Thank you for raising this Andrew.
I believe the Go community is not diverse enough and this directly impacts the success of the language and how it is perceived. A code of conduct combined with effective moderation of online spaces lays the groundwork for addressing this imbalance and you have my complete support.
Thanks
Dave
Jason Smith
Jun 18, 2015, 6:06:07 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I appreciate the endeavor, but how does this trickle down to the online spaces. A few weeks ago I called out a user for a racist handle on IRC and I was booted for not talking about Go. I was not degrading the user I was just trying to explain to someone who obviously did not understand their handle was racist.
Chris Manghane
Jun 18, 2015, 6:15:42 PM6/18/15
to Jason Smith, golan...@googlegroups.com
Online spaces like the IRC and slack group will have to follow these codes as well to be officially endorsed by the Go team. I use the go-nuts IRC very often and find it to be one of the easiest and fastest ways to engage with the community. I imagine others do as well and it is unfortunate when situations like the one you described take away from that experience.
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Erik St. Martin
Jun 18, 2015, 6:21:34 PM6/18/15
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I think the Django Code of Conduct is a perfect starting point. It reads more as the type of people and community we should aspire to be rather than written law.
I am also appalled by some of the discrimination and violent and disgustful threats i've heard about going on behind the scenes in many technical communities, including ours. I think that it's our duty to out these people publicly. With people afraid to call out others for their behavior we continue to allow them to abuse and threaten others, and that's not the community we want. One of the things people love most about this community is how welcoming it is, i'm happy to do whatever I can to help keep it that way.
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:20:16 PM UTC-4, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
Erik St. Martin
Jun 18, 2015, 6:25:22 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, jasonric...@gmail.com
Chris, we try to heavily enforce a code of conduct on the Slack group. We also require users to go by their full name instead of handles. I think removing the anonymity from the equation does wonders for having people choose their words carefully. Even some of the noblest of people can get out of hand when given an audience and anonymity.
Brad Fitzpatrick
Jun 18, 2015, 6:27:27 PM6/18/15
to Peter Kleiweg, golang-nuts
Any part in particular?
David Crawshaw
Jun 18, 2015, 6:36:41 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Gerrand, golang-nuts
Thanks Andrew, I think this is a great idea.
The Django code of conduct does look like a good starting point. One
possible adjustment, the last point "When we disagree, try to
understand why" sounds like a version of the Principle of Charity[1]
which could be referenced directly. I find it an invaluable technique
in technical discussion.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
The Django code of conduct does look like a good starting point. One
possible adjustment, the last point "When we disagree, try to
understand why" sounds like a version of the Principle of Charity[1]
which could be referenced directly. I find it an invaluable technique
in technical discussion.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_charity
Keith Rarick
Jun 18, 2015, 6:37:03 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Gerrand, golang-nuts
Yes! This is wonderful. I wholeheartedly support this effort.
--
Peter Kleiweg
Jun 18, 2015, 6:48:27 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, pkle...@xs4all.nl
Op vrijdag 19 juni 2015 00:27:27 UTC+2 schreef bradfitz:
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 2:46 PM, Peter Kleiweg <pkle...@xs4all.nl> wrote:I don't think I like this.Any part in particular?
The code of conduct part.
Keith Rarick
Jun 18, 2015, 6:49:55 PM6/18/15
to Erik St. Martin, golang-nuts, jasonric...@gmail.com
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 3:25 PM, Erik St. Martin <alak...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Chris, we try to heavily enforce a code of conduct on the Slack group. We
> also require users to go by their full name instead of handles. I think
> removing the anonymity from the equation does wonders for having people
> choose their words carefully. Even some of the noblest of people can get out
> of hand when given an audience and anonymity.
I think this is a noble sentiment, but we should also keep in mind that
> Chris, we try to heavily enforce a code of conduct on the Slack group. We
> also require users to go by their full name instead of handles. I think
> removing the anonymity from the equation does wonders for having people
> choose their words carefully. Even some of the noblest of people can get out
> of hand when given an audience and anonymity.
requiring people to disclose their "full name" or government-documented
name can be harmful itself:
http://www.salon.com/2015/03/30/say_my_name_facebooks_unfair_real_names_policy_continues_to_harm_vulnerable_users/
Peter Kleiweg
Jun 18, 2015, 6:51:58 PM6/18/15
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Op vrijdag 19 juni 2015 00:06:07 UTC+2 schreef Jason Smith:
I appreciate the endeavor, but how does this trickle down to the online spaces. A few weeks ago I called out a user for a racist handle on IRC and I was booted for not talking about Go. I was not degrading the user I was just trying to explain to someone who obviously did not understand their handle was racist.
Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?
The morals of which country determine what is good conduct?
Burcu Dogan
Jun 18, 2015, 6:54:52 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, jasonric...@gmail.com
I think removing the anonymity from the equation does wonders for having people choose their words carefully. Even some of the noblest of people can get out of hand when given an audience and anonymity.
Even though removing the anonymity is encouraging others to choose their words wisely, anonymity is also a powerful tool when used with responsibility. It gives those who systemically discriminated a chance to speak up and participate. I wish this community will never have to adopt a real-name policy.
On the contradictory, I want to propose an anonymous reporting mechanism and a responsibility chain to review and address these concerns.
I have concerns about the negativity in the Go community and believe that it might be resolved easily with healthy discussion, good citizenship and a strong non-retaliation policy against whose raise their concerns.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 18, 2015, 6:59:12 PM6/18/15
to Peter Kleiweg, golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 08:51, Peter Kleiweg <pkle...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a bad thing?
If it's speech that makes people feel unwelcome and discriminated against, then I personally believe that's a bad thing.
Even now, without an official code of conduct, racism is not tolerated on this list, at least. I hope that representatives from the community who use the IRC channel will be involved in this conversation.
The morals of which country determine what is good conduct?
The answer is that we get to decide what is good conduct. This includes you.
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 7:10:52 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Sounds good,
If you have a problem with something, you should be able to logically outline why it is flawed in a civil way without personal attacks. We should also discourage playing the victim, which is on the other end of the spectrum.
If you have a problem with something, you should be able to logically outline why it is flawed in a civil way without personal attacks. We should also discourage playing the victim, which is on the other end of the spectrum.
Jason Buberel
Jun 18, 2015, 7:17:33 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, jasonric...@gmail.com
+1 to Burcu's suggestion:
On the contradictory, I want to propose an anonymous reporting mechanism and a responsibility chain to review and address these concerns.
Something like code-of...@golang.org, along with strong confidentiality and a commitment to a timely response.
-jason
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 7:21:06 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, jasonric...@gmail.com
I don't think burdening someone like Andrew with the duty to be a private investigator and judge over personal issues is a good use of time.
Jason Smith
Jun 18, 2015, 7:26:10 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I cannot imagine any situation where if someone found something offensive you could not respect that in a public space devoted to programming.
Burcu Dogan
Jun 18, 2015, 7:26:11 PM6/18/15
to andrewc...@gmail.com, golang-nuts
> without personal attacks
I had bad personal experiences with this. The definition of a personal
attack is far-fetched and our cultural differences make it even
harder.
Rust's code of conduct perfectly explains what to do in such cases:
"... if someone takes issue with something you said or did, resist the
urge to be defensive. Just stop doing what it was they complained
about and apologize. Even if you feel you were misinterpreted or
unfairly accused, chances are good there was something you could've
communicated better"
http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
> We should also discourage playing the victim, which is on the other end of the spectrum.
This is type of response I get every time I am trying to talk about
about sexism. Tech community is not diverse and always crying out loud
that someone is playing the victim rather than acknowledging the
ongoing problems.
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I had bad personal experiences with this. The definition of a personal
attack is far-fetched and our cultural differences make it even
harder.
Rust's code of conduct perfectly explains what to do in such cases:
"... if someone takes issue with something you said or did, resist the
urge to be defensive. Just stop doing what it was they complained
about and apologize. Even if you feel you were misinterpreted or
unfairly accused, chances are good there was something you could've
communicated better"
http://www.rust-lang.org/conduct.html
> We should also discourage playing the victim, which is on the other end of the spectrum.
about sexism. Tech community is not diverse and always crying out loud
that someone is playing the victim rather than acknowledging the
ongoing problems.
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Burcu Dogan
Jun 18, 2015, 7:41:15 PM6/18/15
to andrewc...@gmail.com, golang-nuts, jasonric...@gmail.com
> I don't think burdening someone like Andrew with the duty to be a private investigator and judge over personal issues is a good use of time.
It must be handled by a group of elected people and it is a good use
of time to make this community a healthier place. If people are
feeling unsafe or oppressed, nothing matters. I applaud anyone who is
trying to make this language a better place.
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Robert Melton
Jun 18, 2015, 7:48:05 PM6/18/15
to Brad Fitzpatrick, Peter Kleiweg, golang-nuts
When reading the linked Django Code of Conduct they have a part in there
"In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a
person's ability to participate within them." which is really a push to
force Django's Code of Conduct on other communities. I am involved in
many different online communities, and what is considered acceptable
conduct in them varies greatly and often conflicts. The LKML may view
acceptable conduct very differently than Django.
Beyond that, you mentioned "in private Go-related correspondence" --
could you clarify the meaning of that? If I email a co-worker about Go,
is that a "private Go-related correspondence"? Is that something you
believe the Go Code of Conduct should apply to?
Now, those points are obviously slightly nitpicky (but I still hope you
will address them) and I think can be fixed by just cleaning up the
language a bit (or just removing it).
My more deeply held concerns are around repercussions. Because that is
what actually matters at the end of the day. Rules and consequences are
paired. Depending on the consequences some of the things decided by the
"review board" regarding the Go Code of Conduct could be career
destroying (or worse), and yet the way communities tend to handle this
is to have it "investigated" by a bunch of untrained, biased, personally
involved software engineers hearing a subset of the facts then rendering
a verdict, which unsurprisingly often finds on behalf of the person they
like more or know better.
The Django reporting (https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/)
is an example of such a system. Now most of the consequences are
relatively trivial until you get to things like "banning" or "public
reporting"... because those can impacts peoples career or whole lives,
and in that case I would very much like to know who exactly gets to make
those decisions. Who are the "judges" and who picks them? What are the
core principals for deciding guilt or innocence? If you want to run a
mini-justice-system -- these are the things that have to be answered...
Presumption of innocence? Right to face your accuser? Rights to
fact-finding? Repercussions for false reports?
For example, as I wrote this, one of the posts on this thread was:
Burcu Dogan wrote:
> On the contradictory, I want to propose an anonymous reporting
> mechanism and a responsibility chain to review and address these
> concerns.
to face their accuser, and makes a handy tool for blackballing someone
you don't like in a repercussion free way.
I hope everyone takes a moment to think about the possible very real
consequences such a system can have, as well as the responsibility it
entails.
--
Robert Melton | http://robertmeta.com
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 7:55:52 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
This is type of response I get every time I am trying to talk about
about sexism. Tech community is not diverse and always crying out loud
that someone is playing the victim rather than acknowledging the
ongoing problems.
There are people who are very sensitive, and there are people who are not sensitive at all. In general, we need to take the average case as the measure of legitimate problems. This is a matter of practicality. Just because some people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean we remove them from all menus.
Jeff Hodges
Jun 18, 2015, 8:00:21 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
This is great and essential for our growing group of folks. With our own Code of Conduct, it will be easier to bring in and keep friends and colleagues who would not make it through the exclusive winnowing of a community without explicit norms for behavior. The communities that are least explicit and introspective about what is not okay are those that suffer the most loss without even knowing it. This is happy first step. I look forward to the discussion!
james...@typesafe.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:00:39 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I'm not part of the Go community, but I think this is an excellent initiative, it's great to see more open source projects be intentional about diversity.
Varun Saini
Jun 18, 2015, 8:00:39 PM6/18/15
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After a certain size, most of the communities need some type of "code of conduct" (Otherwise why we have all the laws and rules in real life). This is a good start. I totally support it.
But as the proposal says, make it something we aspire and not force.
Thanks,
Varun
ad...@dashwith.me
Jun 18, 2015, 8:00:50 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
What's not to like?
stan....@readytalk.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:01:57 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I agree with this and I'm encouraged by this direction. I would hope as a community we could elevate towards and maintain a high level of discourse. Personally, I would like to see questions asking for code examples and help moved to a forum like stack overflow as standard practice and have the users link to the questions/answers from here.
Christopher Nielsen
Jun 18, 2015, 8:02:00 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Gerrand, golang-nuts
Well said, Andrew! Thank you for proposing this. I support this 100%.
I've seen some exchanges on the Go lists that have been less than
civil, and I feel it is very important to be all-inclusive of ideas. I
also support the goal-oriented approach over rules-oriented.
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Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve
neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots & tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson
I've seen some exchanges on the Go lists that have been less than
civil, and I feel it is very important to be all-inclusive of ideas. I
also support the goal-oriented approach over rules-oriented.
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Christopher Nielsen
"They who can give up essential liberty for temporary safety, deserve
neither liberty nor safety." --Benjamin Franklin
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the
blood of patriots & tyrants." --Thomas Jefferson
Paddy Foran
Jun 18, 2015, 8:02:10 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Whole-heartedly welcomed. This is a welcome addition and I'm ecstatic it's happening.
alb.do...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:02:11 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, pkle...@xs4all.nl, brad...@golang.org
My more deeply held concerns are around repercussions. Because that is
what actually matters at the end of the day. Rules and consequences are
paired. Depending on the consequences some of the things decided by the
"review board" regarding the Go Code of Conduct could be career
destroying (or worse), and yet the way communities tend to handle this
is to have it "investigated" by a bunch of untrained, biased, personally
involved software engineers hearing a subset of the facts then rendering
a verdict, which unsurprisingly often finds on behalf of the person they
like more or know better.
The Django reporting (https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/reporting/)
is an example of such a system. Now most of the consequences are
relatively trivial until you get to things like "banning" or "public
reporting"... because those can impacts peoples career or whole lives,
and in that case I would very much like to know who exactly gets to make
those decisions. Who are the "judges" and who picks them? What are the
core principals for deciding guilt or innocence? If you want to run a
mini-justice-system -- these are the things that have to be answered...
Presumption of innocence? Right to face your accuser? Rights to
fact-finding? Repercussions for false reports?
This is extremely true. The creation of a "commission" of people that
rule about those anonymous reports is not something that should be
proposed lightheartedly.
pink...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:03:15 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Earlier this year, the Ada Initiative published a short article, HOWTO design a code of conduct for your community - they also specifically recommend the Django Code of Conduct as a specific good example.
It's important to provide a list of specific negative behaviors that are not allowed, as it clarifies expected behavior for the community, and prevents some month-long discussions on "Was this action inappropriate? How could the person have known it was inappropriate?" It also lets people who are the victims of harassment know that if they report the harassment, they'll be taken seriously, and not chided or publicly shamed for being "too sensitive."
As they mention, it's sometimes difficult in an online space to determine people who "enforce" the code of conduct, as well as define specific, enforceable, consequences.
--Jemma
shre...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:03:16 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I strongly support this, thanks for recognizing the need and value of codes of conduct for healthy and positive communities.
Mark Mandel
Jun 18, 2015, 8:03:17 PM6/18/15
to Josh Bleecher Snyder, Andrew Gerrand, golang-nuts
Yes. Thank you!
I quite like the Django one as well. Honestly, there isn't much I would personally add or change.
Mark
This is great. Thank you.
-josh
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Caleb Spare
Jun 18, 2015, 8:03:55 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Chambers, golang-nuts
> There are people who are very sensitive, and there are people who are not
> sensitive at all. In general, we need to take the average case as the
> measure of legitimate problems. This is a matter of practicality. Just
> because some people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean we remove them
> from all menus.
If by "peanuts" you mean "actions that only harm a few people" then I
> sensitive at all. In general, we need to take the average case as the
> measure of legitimate problems. This is a matter of practicality. Just
> because some people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean we remove them
> from all menus.
think it's a fine goal to run a peanut-free community.
Burcu Dogan
Jun 18, 2015, 8:04:27 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Chambers, golang-nuts
> There are people who are very sensitive, and there are people who are not sensitive at all
This is not about sensitivity. I expressed this point a couple of time
in private threads and I want to repeat it publicly. The argument of
"There is no [x] issue in Go, because I didn't experienced it" is
flawed. Each individual who raises an important concern deserves
respect.
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:11:40 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
If by "peanuts" you mean "actions that only harm a few people" then I
think it's a fine goal to run a peanut-free community.
No, that is not what I meant. Peanuts are things enjoyed by the majority of people, but harm very few people. Many jokes are an example of this. Take the thread recently where someone was offended by the use of russian language. Many people thought it funny, and just joked. Some were apparently offended. Should anyone who wrote some Russian there be anonymously reported?
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:13:40 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
If by "peanuts" you mean "actions that only harm a few people" then I
think it's a fine goal to run a peanut-free community.
That is implying removing peanuts from people who enjoy them is not harming them.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 18, 2015, 8:20:06 PM6/18/15
to Andrew Chambers, golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 10:11, <andrewc...@gmail.com> wrote:
No, that is not what I meant. Peanuts are things enjoyed by the majority of people, but harm very few people. Many jokes are an example of this. Take the thread recently where someone was offended by the use of russian language. Many people thought it funny, and just joked. Some were apparently offended. Should anyone who wrote some Russian there be anonymously reported?
Many people enjoy pornography. Does that mean we should allow it here?
Your posts seem to illustrate exactly why someone would want an anonymous reporting mechanism.
In the case of peanuts, let them make the report. Whoever reviews the reports can say "Well, just don't eat the peanuts. We don't want to deny everyone peanuts just because you don't like them. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable."
In other cases, the reporter might bring our attention to behavior that is alienating people, likely in a way that we hadn't considered before. I think there's great value in that.
An important part of this process, IMO, is improving communication. If people don't feel that they can tell anyone of their discomfort, they'll just leave. That's a shame.
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:29:05 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
Many people enjoy pornography. Does that mean we should allow it here?
A fair point.
Your posts seem to illustrate exactly why someone would want an anonymous reporting mechanism.In the case of peanuts, let them make the report. Whoever reviews the reports can say "Well, just don't eat the peanuts. We don't want to deny everyone peanuts just because you don't like them. Sorry if that makes you uncomfortable."
You guys (Go team) are pretty level headed, so it would probably work fine under your judgment. I just don't want to see anyone crucified for lukewarm comments.
frogo...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 8:53:21 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, pkle...@xs4all.nl, brad...@golang.org
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:48:05 PM UTC-7, Robert Melton wrote:
[snip]
This. The Django Code of Conduct — combined with the Reporting Guide — isn't merely a set of aspirational documents; it establishes a body of judges who act on anonymous reports and, at their discretion, makes career-ending pronouncements ("a public reprimand").
The Django Reporting Guide lacks a number of protections against false accusations; if someone makes false accusations that warrant a public reprimand and a permanent ban, then the accuser ought to have those same repercussions.
Jason Smith
Jun 18, 2015, 8:54:21 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
Removing offensive language from your dialog in a forum about programming is not harming anyone. So if peanuts are statements that offend people, then no, you should not have peanuts. You should be denied peanuts, but you can get by without peanuts. People with peanut allergies do everyday.
Jokes about Russians, women, etc. Those jokes have no reason to be in a discussion about programming. If you want to discuss those things, bring them to some other forum.
Your inability to make those jokes does not impact your or anyone else in regards to how you or they program in Go.
Jokes about Russians, women, etc. Those jokes have no reason to be in a discussion about programming. If you want to discuss those things, bring them to some other forum.
Your inability to make those jokes does not impact your or anyone else in regards to how you or they program in Go.
macki...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 9:12:32 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Wow, more censorship?
Luckily I'm just barely into Go, so I'll just quit and learn another language with a community that doesn't forcefully censor people.
Fuck "social justice" and fuck this internet.
Luckily I'm just barely into Go, so I'll just quit and learn another language with a community that doesn't forcefully censor people.
Fuck "social justice" and fuck this internet.
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 4:20:16 PM UTC-5, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
Hi gophers,Since Go was launched nearly six years ago, our community has grown from a small group of enthusiasts to thousands of programmers from all corners of the globe. I am proud of us; so many great projects and such a helpful and passionate group of people. Sincerely, I consider myself lucky to be involved.But as we grow we should reflect on how we can improve.Take this mailing list, for example. While the majority of discussions here are respectful and polite, occasionally they take a turn for the worse. While such incidents are rare, they are noticeable and have an effect on the tone of other discussions. We can do better.At times we can be overly didactic, meeting opposing ideas with inflexibility. When challenged by a differing opinion we should not be defensive, but rather take the opportunity to discuss and debate so that we may better understand our own ideas.I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK.We are the Go community; we get to choose what is OK and what is not. It's not a choice but a responsibility, and it is a responsibility that we have neglected too long.The positive effects of diversity in communities are well-documented. If our community is to continue to grow and prosper, we must make it a more inclusive place, where all are respected and nobody is made to feel dismissed, unwelcome, or unsafe.To that end, I propose that we establish a Code of Conduct that would cover the behavior of community members on the various Go mailing lists and the golang subreddit, on IRC, in private Go-related correspondence, and at Go events.I believe that any Code of Conduct we adopt should be goal-oriented ("this is what we aspire to") rather than rules-oriented ("don't do this!"). I also believe it should empower the community to help maintain a high standard: I want everyone to feel comfortable calling out bad behavior, without the need to appeal to authority.I have done a survey of similar codes in various communities and the Django Code of Conduct is the one I like best. I am in favor of basing our code directly on that document.I invite all members of the community to discuss, here in this thread, what they would like to see in our Code of Conduct. I will incorporate those ideas into an official Code of Conduct proposal document that I will submit using our new Change Proposal Process.I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Andrew
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 9:15:33 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 12:54:21 PM UTC+12, Jason Smith wrote:
Removing offensive language from your dialog in a forum about programming is not harming anyone. So if peanuts are statements that offend people, then no, you should not have peanuts. You should be denied peanuts, but you can get by without peanuts. People with peanut allergies do everyday.
Jokes about Russians, women, etc. Those jokes have no reason to be in a discussion about programming. If you want to discuss those things, bring them to some other forum.
I never mentioned jokes about Women. The implication that I want to make sexist jokes is offensive to me. Perhaps you should censor your own biases, it is impossible to avoid offending everyone.
Dan Kortschak
Jun 18, 2015, 9:29:18 PM6/18/15
to Jason Smith, golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 17:54 -0700, Jason Smith wrote:
> Jokes about Russians, women, etc. Those jokes have no reason to be in
> a discussion about programming. If you want to discuss those things,
> bring them to some other forum.
Offence is very hard to define, the case Andrew was raising was a month
> Jokes about Russians, women, etc. Those jokes have no reason to be in
> a discussion about programming. If you want to discuss those things,
> bring them to some other forum.
or so back where an OP posted asking in Russian whether there were any
Russian Go programmers. This provoked a number of answers in Russian,
some were intended to be directly helpful and some were obviously
playful games with language and languages and clearly not intended to be
offensive. However, offence was taken. They were not jokes about
Russians.
Dan Kortschak
Jun 18, 2015, 9:30:44 PM6/18/15
to Jason Smith, golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
On Fri, 2015-06-19 at 10:59 +0930, Dan Kortschak wrote:
> However, offence was taken.
I should add, not by the OP, but another list member.
> However, offence was taken.
I should add, not by the OP, but another list member.
adon...@google.com
Jun 18, 2015, 9:38:04 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, macki...@gmail.com
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 21:12:32 UTC-4, macki...@gmail.com wrote:
Wow, more censorship?
Luckily I'm just barely into Go, so I'll just quit and learn another language with a community that doesn't forcefully censor people.
Fuck "social justice" and fuck this internet.
The Code of Conduct is working already. :)
mcamero...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 10:10:49 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, adon...@google.com, macki...@gmail.com
It proved the need for it and effected a change in one fell swoop. I'm on board with this!
Dan Kortschak
Jun 18, 2015, 10:29:02 PM6/18/15
to mcamero...@gmail.com, golan...@googlegroups.com, adon...@google.com, macki...@gmail.com
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 18:58 -0700, mcamero...@gmail.com wrote:
> It proved the need for it and effected a change in one fell swoop. I'm
> on board with this!
But is also demonstrating how easily pitchforks can be brought out. The
> It proved the need for it and effected a change in one fell swoop. I'm
> on board with this!
poster said their piece and left. Let's move on.
Cameron Palone
Jun 18, 2015, 10:32:00 PM6/18/15
to Dan Kortschak, golan...@googlegroups.com, adon...@google.com, macki...@gmail.com
Yes, let's. Good point.
Nate Finch
Jun 18, 2015, 11:17:21 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I think this is a fantastic idea. I fully support it.
Also, for the record, put me down as +1 to every last thing Burcu Dogan says on this thread, both past and future. She is EXACTLY the voice we should be listening to.
Those of you who are some or all of the following things (like me): straight, white, upper middle class, male, from the US... please realize that your view of the world comes from a position of power that is unrivaled by any other in the world. Your view is skewed. My view is skewed. We have to overcompensate for that, in order to put forth what is in actuality a balanced perspective.
There's no "playing the victim". If someone says you're hurting/offending them, you are. Period. The fact that they have to speak up at all indicates that. It is very rare for people to say you're offending them when you're actually not. And regardless of how "overly sensitive" you think they're being, they are still being hurt. So stop.
Nate Finch
Jun 18, 2015, 11:24:19 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
So... the code of conduct is a great idea... but it seems like Google Groups is an exceedingly poor place to enforce such a thing. There are effectively zero moderation tools (I think you might be able to ban people?). And Groups is not exactly Google's most actively maintained software. Is there any thought of moving to a more modern system that might give us more tools to make the community a welcoming and friendly place? Discourse seems to be built specifically for the purpose of making online discussion groups more friendly and useful. I know it's not Google software, but it seems to have all or nearly all the features of Google Groups, and a hell of a lot more (moderation etc).
some...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 11:29:20 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, mcamero...@gmail.com, macki...@gmail.com, dan.ko...@adelaide.edu.au, adon...@google.com
What about false accusations of homophobia / transphobia / racism / classism / sexism?
I see the Django Standards are silent on this point.
Do you refuse to have any standards, and will assume any person accused of thoughtcrime is guilty until proven innocent?
Do you abjure libel? Or is "punching up," as if by some secular transubstantiation, made to be not libelous?
I am a bisexual male and I must say, without such guarantees, I would feel very threatened by such word police.
-p
Chris Broadfoot
Jun 18, 2015, 11:29:20 PM6/18/15
to Nate Finch, golang-nuts
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Nate Finch <nate....@gmail.com> wrote:
Discourse seems to be built specifically for the purpose of making online discussion groups more friendly and useful.
This thread isn't really the place for suggestions, other than ones relating to a Code of Conduct. I do suggest you start a new one, though :)
sc...@spotman.net
Jun 18, 2015, 11:29:20 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Hi,
Being a daily user of Golang for several years, and encourage the use of it all the time, this is of interest to me.
Firstly, I completely agree that harassment is unacceptable in an online (or offline) venue.
Curious, though, is this being proposed for the language of Go, or the discussion forum of go-nuts?
I think it makes sense for go-nuts, and should include things like "no porn", because its obvious porn would be out of place here and inappropriate.
I think it also makes sense for this to outline how a reasonable member of the go-nuts community should behave.
However, for an entire language guideline, I feel like something like what django has, is way too complex, and comes with it ways to enforce this, but seems to mostly be about enforcing it in their discussion forums.
If you look at Python's Code of Conduct, it is very short and sweet.
I hope that if what we are discussing goes for the entire language, it is short and sweet as a "recommendation" rather than some framework for telling people how to behave.
Personally (not saying it doesn't happen) have seen nothing offensive (I don't come on this forum much, and have never posted), so its hard for me to gauge how much of this is preventative, or reactionary.
Obviously we shouldn't put up with racism, misogyny, or harassment of any type. Is this happening at rate that it needs to be in the main cultural prescription of the language?
The flip side is that sometimes we don't live in a perfect world. Beyond the real bad stuff, engineers can be edgy and stubborn, and can even be coarse (see: LKML). Yes this is intimidating. No, it's not anywhere near ideal. So, guidelines to tell people this is not cool is one thing. But enforcing that someone can't be a part of the entire programming language or be reprimanded for being edgy is far from ideal and sure to alienate some people that don't have time to deal with overly sensitive people.
But once again, what is our concern, and how much will we enforce it? Something like a general "hey this is how to be respected here" is a totally different thing than "these are the rules, and this is how we enforce them".
If I could possibly suggest that if we are making rules for how to engage the community, lets glue that to the individual communities, like IRC or go-nuts, and not the language, and if we are going to make some sort of cultural suggestion guideline for go as language overall, lets keep it short and sweet and "recommended", not "enforced".
Just my .02, cheers :)
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 18, 2015, 11:34:48 PM6/18/15
to some...@gmail.com, golang-nuts, mcamero...@gmail.com, macki...@gmail.com, Dan Kortschak, Alan Donovan
On 19 June 2015 at 13:25, <some...@gmail.com> wrote:
What about false accusations of homophobia / transphobia / racism / classism / sexism?
Maybe that qualifies as "harassment"?
Do you refuse to have any standards, and will assume any person accused of thoughtcrime is guilty until proven innocent?Do you abjure libel? Or is "punching up," as if by some secular transubstantiation, made to be not libelous?I am a bisexual male and I must say, without such guarantees, I would feel very threatened by such word police.
simran
Jun 18, 2015, 11:37:36 PM6/18/15
to Nate Finch, golang-nuts
Those of you who are some or all of the following things (like me): straight, white, upper middle class, male, from the US... please realize that your view of the world comes from a position of power that is unrivaled by any other in the world.
Funny... but that's actually quite an offensive statement. Feeling that your view comes from a "position of power that is unrivalled by any other in the world" is just arrogance! Despite it being offensive, i'd never like to see it "banned".
Whilst i think the community guidelines are definitely beneficial, their implementation is paramount. I'm all for the founders and core contributors listing values / principles they live by. We will follow their leadership (everyone does not need to be a leader in everything!) - we can still have a sense of belonging without a sense of ownership. Effort will of course be needed to ban that which abuses the values/principles - if one of the principles were no mention of "12 letter words" - that's fine... we might think it's silly, but no big shakes... we can live with that and abide by it, alongside the other rules that do make sense.
There is no wisdom in crowds (the community should not need everyone's buy in), only mob mentality. If the founders / core-contributes have values worth following - and from my perspective from what little i have seen, i definitely respect what they have to say - individuals will ignore the idiosyncrasies (like no 12 letter words), be able to still abide by it out of respect for the founders/cc, while still abiding by what they might believe in (eg. no abuse of other individuals) - and the "loosely structured" community will work :)
IMHO, i think the founders/core-contributors (perhaps a dozen of them) should get together, form the guidelines and let the rest of us know their thoughts... i'm sure most will be happy, and i fact grateful and thankful.
Your view is skewed. My view is skewed.
Absolutely true... but there is nothing *wrong* with that... :) A recognition of it is good, but trying to fit the LCM every time will only get dumb outcomes.
We have to overcompensate for that, in order to put forth what is in actuality a balanced perspective.
Balance... what a lovely word. A lot of times a "balanced view" is attributed to the Buddha... and yet, when one looks at his life, it was a life of extremes... i wonder if balance comes not from the "middle path", but from being able to capture two extremes :)
There's no "playing the victim". If someone says you're hurting/offending them, you are. Period. The fact that they have to speak up at all indicates that. It is very rare for people to say you're offending them when you're actually not. And regardless of how "overly sensitive" you think they're being, they are still being hurt. So stop.
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mrek...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 11:40:02 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I like this idea.
Thanks,
P.
David Chase
Jun 18, 2015, 11:40:54 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
To the people objecting on theoretical/hypothetical grounds -- are there examples of these theoretical problems actually materializing in other similar communities with codes of conduct? Do we have anything beyond anecdotes, to the point that we could look to parts of the code of conduct that lead them to occur, and improve them?
I ask, because bias is not a theoretical problem -- it happens. Harassment is not a theoretical problem. Public behavior that is (to me) jaw-droppingly inappropriate/rude/tasteless is not a theoretical problem. All these things happen, there are companies that I personally boycott because they tolerate this sort of behavior by their upper management. I haven't been involved with Go enough to know if it happens in this community, but I know that we're not very diverse, and that is a problem. I have been involved long enough to get the very strong impression that we assign a much greater weight to practical problems than we do theoretical-only problems.
I ask, because bias is not a theoretical problem -- it happens. Harassment is not a theoretical problem. Public behavior that is (to me) jaw-droppingly inappropriate/rude/tasteless is not a theoretical problem. All these things happen, there are companies that I personally boycott because they tolerate this sort of behavior by their upper management. I haven't been involved with Go enough to know if it happens in this community, but I know that we're not very diverse, and that is a problem. I have been involved long enough to get the very strong impression that we assign a much greater weight to practical problems than we do theoretical-only problems.
My wife follows this stuff (she is threatening to send me some references even now), and low diversity in corporate boards is correlated with lower financial returns. Higher diversity is linked to better decision making. The only positive result correlated with low-diversity groups is "greater happiness" -- but those studies don't include excluded people in their happiness measurement.
So, really, this is a problem, and I think it is great that we're working on fixing it.
So, really, this is a problem, and I think it is great that we're working on fixing it.
To look at this a different way that completely ignores diversity and only counts heads, have we observed in other communities that more people are excluded because of false accusations and process run amok, or are more people excluded because of harassment and bias? A rational person seeking to grow a community would seek the policy that included the greatest number of people, even if it isn't perfect.
One older but useful reference (according to my resident expert): “Searching for Common Threads: Understanding the Multiple Effects of Diversity in Organizational Groups” by Frances J. Milliken and Luis L. Martins in The Academy of Management Review, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Apr., 1996), pp. 402-433
One older but useful reference (according to my resident expert): “Searching for Common Threads: Understanding the Multiple Effects of Diversity in Organizational Groups” by Frances J. Milliken and Luis L. Martins in The Academy of Management Review, Vol. 21, No. 2 (Apr., 1996), pp. 402-433
Dan Kortschak
Jun 18, 2015, 11:41:31 PM6/18/15
to Nate Finch, golan...@googlegroups.com
On Thu, 2015-06-18 at 20:17 -0700, Nate Finch wrote:
> There's no "playing the victim". If someone says you're
> hurting/offending them, you are. Period. The fact that they have to
> speak up at all indicates that. It is *very *rare for people to say
> There's no "playing the victim". If someone says you're
> hurting/offending them, you are. Period. The fact that they have to
> you're offending them when you're actually not. And regardless of how
> "overly sensitive" *you* think they're being, *they* are still being
> hurt. So stop.
>
While I agree with the general sentiment, ethics is more complicated
than that. See my comment on the Russian post incident.
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 18, 2015, 11:42:40 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, sc...@spotman.net
Curious, though, is this being proposed for the language of Go, or the discussion forum of go-nuts?
I actually think online is the least important place. Go has many conferences and gatherings in the real world, both official and unofficial, and I think it is more important for those.
Phea Duch
Jun 18, 2015, 11:53:31 PM6/18/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Does this initiative have anything to do with what happened recently with the Opal project?
I am not comfortable with the lynch mobbed wanting the maintainer removed because he said something seen as transphobic on his personal Twitter account.
Burcu Dogan
Jun 18, 2015, 11:53:54 PM6/18/15
to simran, Nate Finch, golang-nuts
> MHO, i think the founders/core-contributors (perhaps a dozen of them) should get together, form the guidelines and let the rest of us know their thoughts... i'm sure most will be happy, and i fact grateful and thankful.
The code of conduct exists for the community, that's why community must have a say. It must be a collective responsibility to draft the terms and the methodology. The intention is to allow Go to grow beyond its current audience. The founders and top dozen of the core contributors, more or less, are able to do their jobs. That' why they don't quit.
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dmik...@gmail.com
Jun 19, 2015, 12:02:21 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
This is another reason I'm proud to be a gopher. After reading the Gophercon code of conduct I was just flat out overjoyed and actually felt a part of the community rather than just carving out my own small space.
Burcu Dogan
Jun 19, 2015, 12:06:05 AM6/19/15
to sc...@spotman.net, golang-nuts
> But once again, what is our concern, and how much will we enforce it? Something like a general "hey this is how to be respected here" is a totally different thing than "these are the rules, and this is how we enforce them".
I agree with the concerns here. It is not clear to me what the extent
and how the process will work. None of this matters without freedom of
speech and we cannot give a dozen of privileged people power to rule
us without policy.
Anthony Martin
Jun 19, 2015, 12:10:51 AM6/19/15
to golang-nuts
Can you please teach us about the code of conduct
instead of telling us about it? Thanks.
Anthony
instead of telling us about it? Thanks.
Anthony
sc...@spotman.net
Jun 19, 2015, 12:12:57 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
Curious, though, is this being proposed for the language of Go, or the discussion forum of go-nuts?I actually think online is the least important place. Go has many conferences and gatherings in the real world, both official and unofficial, and I think it is more important for those.
An event page for conference, for example, would be a perfect place to put this stuff. Or for guidelines on how to behave in an IRC channel, or on this very discussion list.
However, I think putting it as a cultural guideline for using the language at large, might be weird, if its going to be something as elaborate as Django's. (especially, if its meant to be enforced.. are we going to have people searching for offensive comments in source code on github next?)
Maybe for the language itself it can be super duper simple, like go itself. Maybe even 1 sentence? Suggestion: "be nice, listen well, and respect others.".
Just the thought of attaching something as complex as Django's guidelines, to go as a language, seems not very simple and not very go-like. However, to go as a community, it makes sense, but the distinction, is important.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 19, 2015, 12:21:16 AM6/19/15
to Phea Duch, golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 13:53, Phea Duch <phea...@gmail.com> wrote:
Does this initiative have anything to do with what happened recently with the Opal project?I am not comfortable with the lynch mobbed wanting the maintainer removed because he said something seen as transphobic on his personal Twitter account.
That issue was brought to my attention after I started this thread, and this thread is the result of a thought process that started months—perhaps even years—ago. So no, it has nothing to do with Opal.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 19, 2015, 12:46:08 AM6/19/15
to sc...@spotman.net, golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 12:11, <sc...@spotman.net> wrote:
If I could possibly suggest that if we are making rules for how to engage the community, lets glue that to the individual communities, like IRC or go-nuts, and not the language, and if we are going to make some sort of cultural suggestion guideline for go as language overall, lets keep it short and sweet and "recommended", not "enforced".
My intention is that the Code of Conduct is a set of guidelines to be followed by anyone that considers themselves a part of the community.
Enforcement of those guidelines would be specific to the venues over which the Go project has authority. Practically, that means moderating the mailing lists and IRC channel.
I hope that people in our community will consider the Code of Conduct as they communicate in other places.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 19, 2015, 12:47:53 AM6/19/15
to sc...@spotman.net, golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 14:45, Andrew Gerrand <a...@golang.org> wrote:
Practically, that means moderating the mailing lists and IRC channel.
Oh, and the golang subreddit.
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 19, 2015, 1:00:09 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Does this initiative have anything to do with what happened recently with the Opal project?
Peanut = tweet author.
Hyper sensitive allergic = issue creator
Menu = Dev team
"Remove peanut from menu because I am hyper allergic."
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 19, 2015, 1:01:13 AM6/19/15
to golang-nuts
On 19 June 2015 at 07:19, Andrew Gerrand <a...@golang.org> wrote:
I have done a survey of similar codes in various communities and the Django Code of Conduct is the one I like best. I am in favor of basing our code directly on that document.
FWIW, when I suggested we adopt the Django Code of Conduct I am referring to the text on that specific page. I am not necessarily in favor of adopting their reporting and enforcement process, which seems heavy-handed to me.
I would expect the enforcement of this policy to be through moderation of the mailing list, IRC, and /r/golang.
Jay Weisskopf
Jun 19, 2015, 1:07:15 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
+1 to a Code of Conduct
-1 to a Reporting Committee, at least initially
andrewc...@gmail.com
Jun 19, 2015, 1:10:52 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
-1 to a Reporting Committee, at least initially
I have thought some more, and would much prefer an anonymous message sent to the Go team than idiotic public shaming on github issues and twitter.
Andrew Gerrand
Jun 19, 2015, 1:14:14 AM6/19/15
to sc...@spotman.net, golang-nuts
Oh, and the issue tracker and code reviews. :-)
Jay Weisskopf
Jun 19, 2015, 1:29:17 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
I have thought some more, and would much prefer an anonymous message sent to the Go team than idiotic public shaming on github issues and twitter.
Perhaps the Code of Conduct should discourage "dogpiling" when a faux pas is made. That guideline seems to work well in the Recurse Center community (of which I am a part). I trust the Go team to make good engineering decisions, but I would be skeptical of their efficacy if they become some kind of centralized social judiciary.
Jakub Labath
Jun 19, 2015, 1:32:41 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 5:10:52 AM UTC, andrewc...@gmail.com wrote:
I have thought some more, and would much prefer an anonymous message sent to the Go team than idiotic public shaming on github issues and twitter.
Seems to me that public shaming would in fact violate the above code of conduct (no matter how justified that shaming was).
+1 for code of conduct from me.
Kevin Gillette
Jun 19, 2015, 1:43:42 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, andrewc...@gmail.com
On Thursday, June 18, 2015 at 5:26:11 PM UTC-6, Burcu Dogan wrote:
This is type of response I get every time I am trying to talk about
about sexism. Tech community is not diverse and always crying out loud
that someone is playing the victim rather than acknowledging the
ongoing problems.
This is something I strongly feel that we should address from the start. However well-meaning our code of conduct is, if we don't provide a safe environment for reporting and remediation, then our code will, in effect, have no substance.
I don't feel that the "right to face one's accuser" is necessarily a right we must or even should have in online tech communities, since the sacrifices and provisions we must make in the name of that "right" do considerably more community harm than good (and because of the ease of internet anonymity, it's entirely impractical anyway).
To counteract some perceived downsides of anonymous reporting, there are a number of things we can do. As mentioned by others, we can be lenient for the first few confirmed offenses, providing plenty of opportunity for any member to make good-faith efforts to remain within the community. We can also be lenient toward occasional, unintentional mishaps -- 1 incident every 3 years is better than 3 failures to follow admin requests in the course of a few days. The important thing is that when a given behavior has been reasonably asked to stop, it should be stopped.
Additionally, intentionally mis-using the reporting mechanism (false reporting) is harassment, and instead of the accused facing the accuser, the appropriate response is to report that harassment. Having a diverse group of administrators/moderators review complaints should be effective in distinguishing between those complaints which are legitimate and those which are improper.
Peter Kleiweg
Jun 19, 2015, 2:16:55 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I am really surprised by the lack of concern that this proposal raises. Yes there is some, but there should be much more.
Here is something from the Django text that the OP referred to:
In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them.
Really? You are OK with that?
Here is something from the Django text that the OP referred to:
In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them.
Really? You are OK with that?
Jakob Borg
Jun 19, 2015, 4:19:01 AM6/19/15
to Peter Kleiweg, golan...@googlegroups.com
//jb
Volker Dobler
Jun 19, 2015, 4:27:28 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Am Freitag, 19. Juni 2015 05:17:21 UTC+2 schrieb Nate Finch:
[...] There's no "playing the victim". If someone says you're hurting/offending them, you are. Period. The fact that they have to speak up at all indicates that. It is very rare for people to say you're offending them when you're actually not. And regardless of how "overly sensitive" you think they're being, they are still being hurt. So stop.
I basically agree, but if this "if someone says you hurt/offended him/her you must stop"
is an automatic (or even enforced) mechanism it is easily abused to silence anybody.
Assume I am an idiot, malicious or have a hidden agenda (choose any combination).
You may state "7 is a prime number and 9 is not." and I may declare "Your claims about 7
and 9 are hurting my me, this is offensive, you are disrespecting my religious feelings!"
Now you would have to stop.
Remember, I am a stupid idiot, a malicious bastard or paid to promote someones else's
agenda/campaign but "won" an argument; I silenced you, no matter how provable
correct your statements are.
My example is an extreme one, opposing facts provable in Peano Arithmetic with
religion; it is unrealistic. But I would say it is perfectly fine when scientific facts do hurt
people or do offend people. Don't stop.
Volker
P.S.
I do like the Django Code of Conduct. I read it as wordy version of:
"Don't be an asshole and take extra care in written conversations."
Egon
Jun 19, 2015, 4:37:08 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Disclaimer: these are my initial thoughts on the subject and may change after I ponder about this longer.
I've been reading the thread and discussions; I'm still wondering whether "Code of Conduct" is the best solution.
I agree with the intended goals of making the community inclusive and helpful to everyone. But rules in themselves are discriminative towards some particular behavior.
One counter-example to "Code of Conduct" I can think is Linus Torvalds [1,2]. His approach definitely cannot be described as "professional", at least by standards of many "code of conducts". But the approach he has is swift, clear and impossible to mis-understand; and seems to work very effectively. I'm not saying that such behavior should be encouraged, but rather that if that's the behavior that the person is comfortable with and the people he is communicating with are fine with such behavior - then it shouldn't be disallowed. This is about personal preference about communication and freedom of speech. If you don't like to talking to someone - then don't.
I believe that any Code of Conduct we adopt should be goal-oriented ("this is what we aspire to") rather than rules-oriented ("don't do this!").
I definitely agree with the goal-oriented rather than rules-oriented.
Maybe separate the two concerns: "Community Guide" and "Community Rules" would be better (I wasn't able to figure out a better names ATM). I know that together they essentially make "Code of Conduct", but I think they are separate things and should be treated separately.
"Community Guide" - would be essentially everything that are (usually) counter-productive for discussion. These are not rules, these are things that people should be reminded of... e.g. "People may react badly if you insult them", "Act as if the person was standing next to you.". These are not things that you can get banned for, but people may call you on it or not talk to you after it etc. Essentially, these points are self-moderated by the community by actions that each community-member takes. People are different, act differently and come from different backgrounds.
"Community Rules" - these are the things the things that really are rules and are clearly defined. E.g. "Posting sexually explicit or violent material is not allowed", or "Threats against an other person are not allowed (not even jokingly)". There should be no (easy) way of misinterpreting these. These are the things that are grounds for banning from Go community. There should be a few of them and clear why they exist.
The rules probably should include something like "repeatedly violating behavior requests from the community..." - I'm not sure how to word that in the best and clearest way; it's just to make clear that if you are often in conflict with the community - then it's probably a grounds for removing you from the community. E.g. when a person is behaving abusively towards another person and doesn't stop that behavior.
+ Egon
Philip Pearl
Jun 19, 2015, 4:39:28 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
A cycling club I was once a member of printed "be excellent to each other" on the membership card. A code of conduct can set the tone and that may be enough.
Phil
Phil
Milan P. Stanic
Jun 19, 2015, 6:40:02 AM6/19/15
to golang-nuts
On Fri, 2015-06-19 at 07:19, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
> Since Go was launched nearly six years ago, our community has grown from a
> small group of enthusiasts to thousands of programmers from all corners of
> the globe. I am proud of us; so many great projects and such a helpful and
> passionate group of people. Sincerely, I consider myself lucky to be
> involved.
>
> But as we grow we should reflect on how we can improve.
[...]
> Since Go was launched nearly six years ago, our community has grown from a
> small group of enthusiasts to thousands of programmers from all corners of
> the globe. I am proud of us; so many great projects and such a helpful and
> passionate group of people. Sincerely, I consider myself lucky to be
> involved.
>
> But as we grow we should reflect on how we can improve.
> I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
IMHO Jon Postel Robustness principle is all what is needed:
'Be conservative in what you do, be liberal in what you accept from
others'.
Nico
Jun 19, 2015, 6:51:22 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Here are my two cents:
* I wouldn't like to see a "code of conduct" that bans the use of colourful words and expressions, e.g. "crap", "idiotic", "box of crayons"...
* I wouldn't like to see full name disclosure.
* I wouldn't like to see public trials and/or anonymous accusations.
* I wouldn't like to see long-term penalties like permanently barring a person
PS: I think creating a fair code of conduct is impossible and I feel sorry for whoever undertakes the task.
* I wouldn't like to see a "code of conduct" that bans the use of colourful words and expressions, e.g. "crap", "idiotic", "box of crayons"...
* I wouldn't like to see full name disclosure.
* I wouldn't like to see public trials and/or anonymous accusations.
* I wouldn't like to see long-term penalties like permanently barring a person
PS: I think creating a fair code of conduct is impossible and I feel sorry for whoever undertakes the task.
Daniël de Kok
Jun 19, 2015, 7:04:54 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, Peter Kleiweg
Hi Peter,
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015, at 00:51, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a
> bad thing?
Even if there are no absolute ethics, the Go community can still decide
what is acceptable within the community.
I think it's great that this is taken up by Andrew!
Kind regards,
Daniël
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015, at 00:51, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a
> bad thing?
Even if there are no absolute ethics, the Go community can still decide
what is acceptable within the community.
I think it's great that this is taken up by Andrew!
Kind regards,
Daniël
Jesper Louis Andersen
Jun 19, 2015, 7:35:24 AM6/19/15
to Peter Kleiweg, golang-nuts
On Thu, Jun 18, 2015 at 11:46 PM, Peter Kleiweg <pkle...@xs4all.nl> wrote:
I don't think I like this.
For a long time, I've had my reservations about CoCs on the grounds that I balanced on an edge between thinking they were going to foster a community or being detrimental to a community. Nowadays, I heavily lean to one side in that I think at best, a CoC has no effect whatsoever on anything. And at worst, it injects a large set of identity politics into a space which shouldn't need it in the first place. That is, I believe they are highly detrimental to communities in general.
I definitely see the good intention of the work: making people feel welcome in a community in the first place. But I have my doubts that a CoC is the answer.
--
J.
Peter Kleiweg
Jun 19, 2015, 7:39:14 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, pkle...@xs4all.nl
Op vrijdag 19 juni 2015 13:04:54 UTC+2 schreef Daniël de Kok:
Hi Peter,
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015, at 00:51, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> Who gets to decide what is racist? And even whether or not racist is a
> bad thing?
Even if there are no absolute ethics, the Go community can still decide
what is acceptable within the community.
If the Django example is followed, you could be banned from golang-nuts for posting a picture of Zwartepiet on your blog.
Daniël de Kok
Jun 19, 2015, 7:55:52 AM6/19/15
to Peter Kleiweg, golan...@googlegroups.com
On Fri, Jun 19, 2015, at 13:39, Peter Kleiweg wrote:
> If the Django example is followed, you could be banned from golang-
> nuts for posting a picture of Zwartepiet on your blog.
Sure, but violations are handled by reasonable people[1], and they can
> If the Django example is followed, you could be banned from golang-
> nuts for posting a picture of Zwartepiet on your blog.
decide whether violation outside the Go community is relevant or not.
The flip side is that it is easier to ban people who have e.g. harassed
people in other communities.
Take care,
Daniël
[1] If they were not, the community would probably have degraded to a
point where you do not want to be part of it anyway ;).
David Chase
Jun 19, 2015, 8:23:08 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
On Friday, June 19, 2015 at 6:51:22 AM UTC-4, Nico wrote:
* I wouldn't like to see a "code of conduct" that bans the use of colourful words and expressions, e.g. "crap", "idiotic", "box of crayons"...
Not necessarily ban, but I'd want people to exercise care. If you start a conversation by insulting someone's opinion/work/taste, that tends to send the conversation in an unproductive direction. It's not a guarantee it will be unproductive, but it does load the dice wrongly.
* I wouldn't like to see full name disclosure.
* I wouldn't like to see public trials and/or anonymous accusations.
Depends upon what you mean by "anonymous". Fully anonymous is one thing, person A contacting a moderator B about person C's behavior might just lead to B contacting C with "hey, there was a complaint, can you take a few minutes between writing and clicking 'Post' to reconsider what you're about to say or how you say it?" Not public trial, but A is potentially unknown to C. In general this is an actual service to C, because for every person who comments on boorish public behavior, there's a larger number who simply say "I don't need to hang out with that person" or "I don't need to buy those T shirts" or "I don't need to rent rides in those cars". C loses friends/customers/colleagues she never knew she could have had.
And obviously, if A and only A complains about C1, C2, C3, and C4, then maybe there's a problem with A, but if A1, A2, A3, and A4 all complain about C, then maybe there's a problem with C.
Also, there has to be some allowance made for people sometimes being angry. I once made a remark among colleagues decades ago that I would rather not have made, but I was stressed and furious. I did once ask someone in a frustrating design meeting if he was being "stupid on purpose" -- not good (but his design *was* fundamentally broken).
It's also not just bad words. I'm working hard to not reply with sarcasm to arguments that I think are weak. No bad words, but obviously insulting, obviously not productive. (And I *do* so like sarcasm.)
Vincent Callanan
Jun 19, 2015, 9:00:27 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Having been on the receiving end in the past myself (sometimes fairly, sometimes not),
I understand what is driving this initiative.
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 22:20:16 UTC+1, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
However some health warnings:
- Beware of the tyranny of fluffy talk and political correctness!!!
- While diversity is a good thing, taken to extremes, it causes dilution, paralysis and loss of identity.
- The Law of the Jungle can produce positive (as well as negative) outcomes.
- Good leadership will always trump democracy (and mob rule).
One observation I have made about this forum is that when mob rule breaks out, there are invariably a few sober voices to balance things up.
I would also add that forums, by their nature, tend to invite knee-jerk reactions...not considered responses.
It's no harm for people to let off steam now and then...as long as they are prepared to apologize later if they go too far
..and a little peer pressure can go a long way!
As far as the "woman thing" goes, this is not the Oprah Show.
Whether you are male or female, this is no place for shrinking violets.
There are no loud voices and bad breath here..only keyboards and text.
The Django template is concise..and covers the essential areas.
So let's do it without too much fuss and move on.
On the whole, this community (and this forum) have been a great success!
A few chickens may have come home to roost...but nothing that we can't handle.
So please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater!!!
Cheers, Vincent
On Thursday, 18 June 2015 22:20:16 UTC+1, Andrew Gerrand wrote:
Hi gophers,
Since Go was launched nearly six years ago, our community has grown from a small group of enthusiasts to thousands of programmers from all corners of the globe. I am proud of us; so many great projects and such a helpful and passionate group of people. Sincerely, I consider myself lucky to be involved.But as we grow we should reflect on how we can improve.
Take this mailing list, for example. While the majority of discussions here are respectful and polite, occasionally they take a turn for the worse. While such incidents are rare, they are noticeable and have an effect on the tone of other discussions. We can do better.At times we can be overly didactic, meeting opposing ideas with inflexibility. When challenged by a differing opinion we should not be defensive, but rather take the opportunity to discuss and debate so that we may better understand our own ideas.I'm also concerned by reports of abuse, harassment, and discrimination in our community, particularly toward women and other underrepresented groups. Even I have experienced harassment and abuse myself. This may be common in the tech industry but it is not OK.We are the Go community; we get to choose what is OK and what is not. It's not a choice but a responsibility, and it is a responsibility that we have neglected too long.The positive effects of diversity in communities are well-documented. If our community is to continue to grow and prosper, we must make it a more inclusive place, where all are respected and nobody is made to feel dismissed, unwelcome, or unsafe.To that end, I propose that we establish a Code of Conduct that would cover the behavior of community members on the various Go mailing lists and the golang subreddit, on IRC, in private Go-related correspondence, and at Go events.I believe that any Code of Conduct we adopt should be goal-oriented ("this is what we aspire to") rather than rules-oriented ("don't do this!"). I also believe it should empower the community to help maintain a high standard: I want everyone to feel comfortable calling out bad behavior, without the need to appeal to authority.
I have done a survey of similar codes in various communities and the Django Code of Conduct is the one I like best. I am in favor of basing our code directly on that document.
I invite all members of the community to discuss, here in this thread, what they would like to see in our Code of Conduct. I will incorporate those ideas into an official Code of Conduct proposal document that I will submit using our new Change Proposal Process.
I look forward to hearing everyone's thoughts.
Andrew
Sarah Adams
Jun 19, 2015, 9:00:27 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
@Andrew, thank you for this.
Someone asked me recently if I participate in the golang-nuts thread or IRC channel. I said no, but I couldn't remember why.
I just finished reading this thread. And now I remember why.
I'm going to approach my argument for the Code of Conduct on turf we can all recognize - optimization.
We cannot satisfy every need of every gopher.
So, I propose we look at the pros and cons that have been presented here by the community, and decide, together, for which list we should optimize.
I've collected what I think is a comprehensive list of the pro and con arguments that you all have posted so far on this thread.
I've copied your statements verbatim. I am hoping it will help to illustrate for all of you why I don't participate much in the online Go community outside of code- writing and reviewing.
If you are willing, please try to put yourself in my shoes.
In return, I am happy to try on yours.
# Cons
- [being a] private investigator [is not] a good use of [Andrew's] time.
- the Go Code of Conduct could be career destroying (or worse)
- [investigations tend to be done] by a bunch of untrained, biased, personally involved software engineers
- [the SW engineer investigator] unsurprisingly often finds on behalf of the person they like more or know better
- "banning" or "public reporting"... can impacts peoples career or whole lives
- Just because some people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean we remove them from all menus.
- [does not protect gophers] against false accusations
- [it is] sure to alienate some people that don't have time to deal with overly sensitive people
- [it] might be weird, if its going to be something as elaborate as Django's
- "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." Really? You are OK with that?
# Pros
- lays the groundwork for addressing this imbalance
- [helps] people afraid to call out others for their behavior
- [promotes] logically outlin[ing] why [an idea] is flawed in a civil way without personal attacks
- [CoC makes it] easier to bring in and keep friends and colleagues who would not make it through the exclusive winnowing of a community
- [helps us] be all-inclusive of ideas
- clarifies expected behavior for the community
- prevents some month-long discussions on "Was this action inappropriate?..."
- lets people who are the victims of harassment know that if they report the harassment, they'll be taken seriously
- [lets harassment victims know that they will not be] chided or publicly shamed for being "too sensitive."
- low diversity in corporate boards is correlated with lower financial returns. Higher diversity is linked to better decision making. ...[with this effort,] we're working on fixing it
- [After] reading the Gophercon code of conduct, [I] actually felt a part of the community rather than just carving out my own small space.
Now, we optimize.
Here's where I stand:
My vote is to optimize for the benefits on the Pros list.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of those who already face ridicule *every day* for being a minority gopher, not for the protection of those who are scared to face ridicule for harassing a minority gopher.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of those who are already fighting tooth and nail to stay afloat as a minority engineer, not for the protection of those who are scared to face losing a comfortable career for harassing a minority engineer.
My vote is to optimize for the communal support of those who have been too scared to post on this forum in the past, and not for amplifying the loud voices already present in discussion.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of the gophers being harassed, not for the protection of the gophers who are called out for harassing them.
Thanks,
Sarah Adams
Someone asked me recently if I participate in the golang-nuts thread or IRC channel. I said no, but I couldn't remember why.
I just finished reading this thread. And now I remember why.
I'm going to approach my argument for the Code of Conduct on turf we can all recognize - optimization.
We cannot satisfy every need of every gopher.
So, I propose we look at the pros and cons that have been presented here by the community, and decide, together, for which list we should optimize.
I've collected what I think is a comprehensive list of the pro and con arguments that you all have posted so far on this thread.
I've copied your statements verbatim. I am hoping it will help to illustrate for all of you why I don't participate much in the online Go community outside of code- writing and reviewing.
If you are willing, please try to put yourself in my shoes.
In return, I am happy to try on yours.
# Cons
- [being a] private investigator [is not] a good use of [Andrew's] time.
- the Go Code of Conduct could be career destroying (or worse)
- [investigations tend to be done] by a bunch of untrained, biased, personally involved software engineers
- [the SW engineer investigator] unsurprisingly often finds on behalf of the person they like more or know better
- "banning" or "public reporting"... can impacts peoples career or whole lives
- Just because some people are allergic to peanuts, doesn't mean we remove them from all menus.
- [does not protect gophers] against false accusations
- [it is] sure to alienate some people that don't have time to deal with overly sensitive people
- [it] might be weird, if its going to be something as elaborate as Django's
- "In addition, violations of this code outside these spaces may affect a person's ability to participate within them." Really? You are OK with that?
# Pros
- lays the groundwork for addressing this imbalance
- [helps] people afraid to call out others for their behavior
- [promotes] logically outlin[ing] why [an idea] is flawed in a civil way without personal attacks
- [CoC makes it] easier to bring in and keep friends and colleagues who would not make it through the exclusive winnowing of a community
- [helps us] be all-inclusive of ideas
- clarifies expected behavior for the community
- prevents some month-long discussions on "Was this action inappropriate?..."
- lets people who are the victims of harassment know that if they report the harassment, they'll be taken seriously
- [lets harassment victims know that they will not be] chided or publicly shamed for being "too sensitive."
- low diversity in corporate boards is correlated with lower financial returns. Higher diversity is linked to better decision making. ...[with this effort,] we're working on fixing it
- [After] reading the Gophercon code of conduct, [I] actually felt a part of the community rather than just carving out my own small space.
Now, we optimize.
Here's where I stand:
My vote is to optimize for the benefits on the Pros list.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of those who already face ridicule *every day* for being a minority gopher, not for the protection of those who are scared to face ridicule for harassing a minority gopher.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of those who are already fighting tooth and nail to stay afloat as a minority engineer, not for the protection of those who are scared to face losing a comfortable career for harassing a minority engineer.
My vote is to optimize for the communal support of those who have been too scared to post on this forum in the past, and not for amplifying the loud voices already present in discussion.
My vote is to optimize for the protection of the gophers being harassed, not for the protection of the gophers who are called out for harassing them.
Thanks,
Sarah Adams
Guy Allard
Jun 19, 2015, 9:00:28 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I am with Peter on this.
-1
-1
Luna Duclos
Jun 19, 2015, 9:00:27 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I'd like to post a very strong +1 to everything Burcu said as well, I have nothing to add she didn't already voice.
John Lenton
Jun 19, 2015, 9:01:03 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I think I'm OK with that; if I hear my neighbour hitting his kids, I won't let them into my house even if they promise to not hit mine.
Are you *not* OK with that sentence from the Django text? Could you explain why?
ma...@marceldegraaf.net
Jun 19, 2015, 9:01:03 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com, pkle...@xs4all.nl
That if someone is a notorious asshole in other forums or mediums, this *may* affect whether they're welcome here or not? Yes, I'm OK with that.
But that is the point. In the case of "DongleGate", was the guy making the joke a "notorious asshole"? I think not, he was just a guy making a joke, and someone took offence. People say stupid things all the time – at least I know I do. Should a stupid joke made in a personal context be a reason to be banned from a programming language community?
ma...@marceldegraaf.net
Jun 19, 2015, 9:01:03 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
I agree with this, and it concerns me as well. Just look at the Opal example above, or 2013's controversy around Adria Richards' tweet from PyCon. In both cases the people involved have suffered (or could suffer) from statements made in personal context (a personal Twitter account, a joke to a friend) because they leaked into an open source project or onto Twitter.
Consider that cultures differ. A lot. Speaking for myself: I live in the Netherlands, a country that is known for how liberal and accepting it is of things that may very well be controversial in other cultures or countries. With my Dutch friends I can make jokes that would be perceived as extremely offensive in the USA to make. With my Dutch colleagues I can exchange opinions on Facebook and Twitter that may be perceived as controversial in the USA. Should I be afraid to be called out on these things by conservative members of the Go community, and fear for my job or my involvement in open source projects?
Is it the task of the Go community to actively shut out people that have expressed opinions or made jokes outside of the community that may have offended people in the community? In that case we're all one social justice warrior away from being kickbanned from this community.
toke...@gmail.com
Jun 19, 2015, 9:01:03 AM6/19/15
to golan...@googlegroups.com
Hello All,
I am not officially a part of this community, however I wanted to express my opinion from an outside perspective. Though I know none of you personally, I do know some of your work professionally, through your presence on public forums (reddit, twitter, google groups etc) and media (youtube etc.). I thoroughly enjoy observing/learning from the golang community as well as others. This in part comes from the "professional" level of the community in public "golang" related appearances. What you do in your own time is your own thing. But when representing the "golang" community I feel it is important to "just be a great person" if that makes sense.
I feel what Andrew is proposing is more along the lines of a set of guidelines to help yourself become a better person, which in turn empower others to grow and learn from your teachings/knowledge. I belive the dicussion here should focus more about what standards you want to hold yourself and others to? What do you personally and professionally want to be known for? How do you want others to perceive you? I feel that simply answering those questions for yourself should help with answering how you would like the community as a whole to be represented.
Regarding a "governing body" and "reporting offenses" and "consequences". I feel that may actually be better to have a separate discussion on at a later point. There are quite a few scenarios that could come up, we "programmers" are good at thinking/catching the if/else, try/catch, if not nil, etc statements, but before we go into error handling, we should write out our function/method etc.
These are just my thoughts, hope it helps.
P.S. Keep up the awesome work.
Thanks,
Shaun
I am not officially a part of this community, however I wanted to express my opinion from an outside perspective. Though I know none of you personally, I do know some of your work professionally, through your presence on public forums (reddit, twitter, google groups etc) and media (youtube etc.). I thoroughly enjoy observing/learning from the golang community as well as others. This in part comes from the "professional" level of the community in public "golang" related appearances. What you do in your own time is your own thing. But when representing the "golang" community I feel it is important to "just be a great person" if that makes sense.
I feel what Andrew is proposing is more along the lines of a set of guidelines to help yourself become a better person, which in turn empower others to grow and learn from your teachings/knowledge. I belive the dicussion here should focus more about what standards you want to hold yourself and others to? What do you personally and professionally want to be known for? How do you want others to perceive you? I feel that simply answering those questions for yourself should help with answering how you would like the community as a whole to be represented.
Regarding a "governing body" and "reporting offenses" and "consequences". I feel that may actually be better to have a separate discussion on at a later point. There are quite a few scenarios that could come up, we "programmers" are good at thinking/catching the if/else, try/catch, if not nil, etc statements, but before we go into error handling, we should write out our function/method etc.
These are just my thoughts, hope it helps.
P.S. Keep up the awesome work.
Thanks,
Shaun
Aldrin Leal
Jun 19, 2015, 9:01:13 AM6/19/15
to golang-nuts
Should we stop using Linux because of... well, Linus?
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-- Aldrin Leal, <ald...@leal.eng.br>
Master your EC2-fu! Get the latest ekaterminal public beta http://www.ingenieux.com.br/products/ekaterminal/
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